Madonna: A Rebel Life by Mary Gabriel was released in October 2023
Critics and fans loved and praised it
Mary Gabriel agreed to a Q&A with readers reflecting on the book and Madonna.
If you were to promote Madonna: A Rebel Life and had to choose only one chapter to do so, which chapter would you propose and why?
Mary: You’ve stumped me on the first question! That’s so difficult because I have favourite chapters from each decade. In fact, I love the entire first four parts of the book – from Michigan all the way through Miami – and it’s not because I wrote them. That part of Madonna’s life was unbelievably rich and poignant and fun! It’s when Madonna, as we know her, was born. The stories in those chapters describe her development and the many people who were so important to her. But if you forced me to choose, I might pick Chapter 21, which describes Martin Burgoyne’s death and Madonna’s emergence as a lioness on behalf of gay rights, and also Chapter 28, when she begins organizing the Blond Ambition tour and shoots “Vogue.” To me, Blond Ambition is the pinnacle of her career because it was then that the world got a taste of her power. You might say we have never been the same!
How did you feel when you were invited by Madonna and team to attend The Celebration Tour? Was it a validation for you that you delivered an actual well researched biography?
Mary: I was so shocked because I had been trying to no avail to reach someone — anyone — in Madonna’s camp for years. By the time the book was published, I had given up. Of course, when you write about a living
person, it’s particularly nerve-wracking because you want to get their lives right. At one point I wondered whether I should write the book at all without her cooperation. But the story is so great, and the way I wanted to tell it was so important, that I decided to dare. I thought the story of Madonna the artist needed telling, especially at this point in her career. In general, when I write, I try to be respectful of my subjects so I wasn’t too worried on that score. I did worry, though, that Madonna and her team might find that I had misinterpreted events or misrepresented her. When I received an email from Sara Zambreno, two days before Celebration opened in New York, asking if I’d like to attend as their guest, I couldn’t believe it. I think for the first time in five-plus years I was able to relax. I suppose it was a validation that Madonna’s team liked the book, or at least didn’t hate it! Unfortunately, I was in the middle of promoting it and couldn’t go to New York, but I did see the show in Minnesota in February.
How did you like The Celebration Tour and what were your highlights?
Mary: I had watched it online before seeing it in person and I thought it was remarkable. Actually, that’s too weak a description. It was phenomenal. When I finally saw it live, I actually couldn’t take it all in. It was like being a kid at the circus. There was too much happening – too many rings under the big tent. I needed to see the show several times, from different positions in the arena, in order to truly absorb it. I think people who haven’t seen Madonna don’t understand the incredible artistry on every level that goes into her productions. This one was so complex. It truly did encapsulate her career and it truly did celebrate it. My favourite part was “Live to Tell.” Remember when she first performed that song during the Who’s That Girl tour? It was so stark, with only the huge photo of Madonna/Marilyn behind her. That was in 1987 when a lot of the people she featured during her
Celebration tour performance of that song were ill or had died of AIDS. That part of Madonna’s story – the impact of those losses — is so little known or understood. I think her performance of it during this past tour was beautiful and tragic and unforgettable. Who makes those kinds of statements in concert? The answer: no one but Madonna.
Which compliment on Madonna: A Rebel Life has been the most rewarding?
Mary: The ones from fans who really know Madonna’s story. When a Madonna expert says that they learned something from the book, or that they enjoyed it, then I feel the book was worth writing. Conversely, when someone who doesn’t know anything about Madonna reads it and says they’ve come out of it really liking her and appreciating her work, I’m thrilled, too.
What has been the biggest frustration?
Mary: I try not to get bogged down in the negative comments, but there are a few that have come up repeatedly and that’s frustrating. Some people have criticized the book because I didn’t interview Madonna – as if I wouldn’t have loved to or as if I didn’t try for years! Others come to the book with firm feelings about Madonna based on tabloid headlines they’ve read and so they assume that, because I don’t repeat those flawed if not
outright fallacious stories, I’m being too gentle on her. They can’t imagine that after five years of research, maybe the story I found is the actual story. Besides, she doesn’t come across as an angel in my book. In many instances she is selfish and exasperating. Finally, there’s the question of length. I’ve heard a lot of grumbling about that. Actually, this book could have been five volumes long! There is so much I didn’t write. But that leaves room for future authors!
What is in store for you now? Maybe give Madonna a call and help her finish writing her upcoming biopic?
Mary: Hah! I’m sure she can handle her movie on her own. Won’t that be great to see? With every art form she tackles, she makes it her own. I’m dying to see how she overturns the biopic cliché that we’re seeing so often these days. What’s in store for me? Rest. This book nearly killed me. I need to take a breather before I abandon my life for someone else’s. But as soon as I do, I’ll tell you!
Dirk Verbeeck: was there any surprising information you learned about Madonna, something you really didn’t expect to be part of her iconic career?
Mary: I was surprised by the way she worked. It wasn’t just that she is a workaholic, but that she is involved in every single aspect of her work and that ultimately whatever is attached to her name has her imprint throughout. As she has said, she isn’t an artist who farms out her work. She is her work. I was also inspired by her ability to collaborate. So often collaboration is described as a negative, as if the person isn’t good enough to write a song, or make a video, or direct a film alone. Of course, that’s absurd. Art is always about collaboration because that is the root of inspiration. And collaboration is how Madonna learned to create. Dancers work in troupes. The people she lived and worked with in the early days in New York were in bands. In the clubs, where she drew so much of her inspiration, people moved together and played together as a tribe. She has taken that spirit and made it the core of her work throughout her career and I think she and we are richer for it! In fact, I think part of Madonna’s magic is that she makes her fans part of her collaboration. Even in an arena show like Celebration, the audience feels part of the show.
Daniel Neureiter (Germany): Hello Mary, your Madonna book is stunning, I really enjoyed it. Is there a chance to release the book in German language too?
Mary: thank you so much. I would love to have the book published in Germany, but I think it’s a problem of length. When translating English to German, as you know, the sentences become almost twice as long. If a publisher wanted to do it, they would probably need to publish several volumes. I would love that, of course!!
Éric (France): While you were writing A Rebel Life or during your research, did you learn something about Madonna that you didn’t know?
Mary: When I went into this project, I knew very little about Madonna, so almost everything in the book was a discovery. I can’t tell you how much fun it was to write about a period in her life and then to listen to the music, and watch her videos or films. I danced more during the five years I worked on this book than I had in the previous twenty years of my life! When I went into the project, I knew I respected Madonna as a person and an artist, but I didn’t know whether I would like her work because I’m not a pop music fan. I was shocked how much I loved it – and how her music isn’t pop in the traditional sense at all. There’s a depth to her work that raises it to a much higher level of artistic expression.
Éric (France): I have been a Madonna fan for 40 years and I was pleasantly surprised to learn a lot of things in your book. Thank you for that!
Mary: Thank you for that!!! That is one of the best things to come out of this book, when someone who knows Madonna’s life finds something new in my description of it. I can’t tell you how much that means to me.
Éric (France): There are already so many biographies about Madonna, what was your goal when you decided to write it.
Mary: I’m so glad you asked that question because you’re absolutely right. There are so many books about her but most tell the same story – they tell the story of Madonna the celebrity. I wanted to tell the story of Madonna the artist, the woman who changed culture and societies around the world. The celebrity version of her life doesn’t give her the respect she deserves or treat her as the important historical figure that she is. I hope I was able to do that because, in 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, we’ll look back on her life and see how much she changed us. Often, the kind of book I wrote is written after a person dies. I didn’t want to wait for that. I wanted to
celebrate her while she is still with us.
Éric (France): Did your research make you love Madonna more? Or maybe less?
Mary: Definitely more. I came out of the book with an enormous respect for her. It’s funny. I’ve written several versions of this book. The first was my angry version. By the time I finished my research I was so angry that Madonna has been so misunderstood by so many people, and not seen as an artist worthy of serious consideration. Her fans understand that, but the general public and critics seemed to enjoy ripping to shreds anything and everything she did. My first version of the book, which was 1,500 pages long, was rageful. But then I realized that I should take a cue from Madonna and not let her critics define her. The next few versions were closer to the one that was finally published. I tried to tell Madonna’s story the way she lived it, which was full of joy and love – and hard work, of course.
Éric (France): Did you censor yourself during the process?
Mary: No, never.
Éric (France): And I would like to tell her that this is the best biography I have ever read!
Mary: You are so kind, but I think it has less to do with the writer than the subject. Madonna’s life story is so fantastic that it’s impossible not to come out of it inspired.
Fernando (Madrid Spain): When is the book going to be published in Spanish? It is available in many other languages but not yet in one of the most spoken languages in the planet, with millions of Spanish speakers Madonna fans around waiting for it.
Mary: Fer, that is a very good question!! I hope a Spanish publisher picks it up but so far, that’s not happening. I know Madonna has a huge number of fans in the Spanish-speaking world, probably as many, in fact, as in the English-speaking world. If I hear that it is being published in Spanish, I’ll tell MadonnaUnderground immediately!
Luiz (Brazil): In the YouTube video of Patrick Hernandez “Born to Be Alive” is it true that the dancer standing out in front of the others is Madonna? Is this true or fake?
Mary: Luiz, apparently, the video does not include Madonna. I am told by MadonnaUnderground that the woman often mistaken for Madonna is Debbie Jenner.
Luiz (Brazil): In the YouTube video of “Holiday” is it true that it was produced to be the official music video but was cancelled because it was too similar to other Madonna performances on previous programs? Was this video first shown as a performance on the German TV show Formel Eins rather than as an official music video? True or fake?
Mary: I don’t know, Luiz. At the time of Madonna’s first album, Warner made very inexpensive videos to use as promotions. It could be that it became the official video simply because the record label needed one quickly when the song became a hit. “Lucky Star” was another example of a video that was produced on the cheap and then issued much later to generate interest in the first album. As for the German angle, again I don’t know.
Luiz (Brazil): Regarding the Holiday video, I read that the appearance of the man lying down and reading a book may seem disconnected at first. However, it turns out to be a faithful recreation of the famous 19th-century painting by German artist Carl Spitzweg, known as Der arme Poet; dated 1839. This artistic choice not only added a layer of depth to the visual narrative but also suggested the artistic intention behind the production of an official music video. True or fake?
Mary: I’ve never seen a reference to that, but it wouldn’t surprise me. Madonna often has visual references to famous paintings or photographs embedded in her work. This requires further investigation! I also would like to know who plays the fellow? Is it Martin Burgoyne, who made cameos in Madonna’s videos at that time?
Dave: When did you first hear of Madonna?
Mary: I suppose I would have heard of her – or heard her music – when her first album was released in 1983. I was in art school at the time and the bar I hung around in played really great music. But I must say I didn’t pay much attention to Madonna. She popped up in my life, though, in ways I still remember. In 1986, I was working a journalism job and a young woman I worked with said she was taking her little sister to see Madonna. I was shocked when she came back the next week wearing Madonna-style rags wrapped around her head. Then a decade later, a much older woman I worked with who had been a war correspondent – a really tough gal – left a party early to go to a Madonna concert. I wondered what she saw in her. To me at that time, Madonna was pure pop, which didn’t interest me at all. But I stored those encounters away in my head until 2016, when I heard Madonna’s Billboard Woman of the Year speech. It finally clicked. I knew what they saw in her and I began looking at her entirely differently.
Dave: Despite having sold over 400 million records, only Ray of Light finally won some serious Grammy Awards and musical recognition, why do you think so much of her work goes unrecognized?
Mary: I found that to be one of the most shocking aspects of her story. Madonna changed popular music and culture fundamentally – for men and women. Her impact was enormous, up there with Elvis, the
Beatles, Michael Jackson, and yet the Recording Academy of the United States, which awards the Grammys, never deigned to recognize her until “Ray of Light,” fifteen years into her career. In those days, it was pure sexism. Pop/Rock was a boys’ world. Madonna was not only a woman, but she was a threatening woman at that because she called out misogyny where she saw it. It’s unbelievable that the Academy could be so flagrantly sexist and get away with it. But that was the reality of life as a woman performer in those days. The young women on stage today can thank Madonna for busting down many of those barriers.
Dave: How do today’s role models compare to Madonna’s early 80s wannabe frenzy?
Mary: I thought about that a lot this past year during the Taylor Swift takeover of the planet. I watched some young girls – 9, 10, 11 – follow Swift the way many young girls once followed Madonna. I think the messaging is
quite different, though. Madonna sang about self-empowerment, self-inspiration. I’m no Taylor Swift expert (in fact, at a family gathering I was the only person who could not name a Taylor Swift song) but I have a feeling she sings about herself in relation to men. Maybe that’s not fair. I also wonder a bit about the corporatization of her tour. Madonna always had a big company behind her but that organization’s heavy hand never impeded (or very rarely impeded) her. She did what she wanted artistically. I’m not sure that’s true with some of the younger women on the circuit today. But again, I may be wrong. I suppose it’s great for any little girl to see a woman on stage commanding the attention of millions of people.
Dave: Society seems to go backwards. Prudishness has never been more popular than now. A recent research (GGD Amsterdam questioned teenagers aged 13-16) gave a shocking result in the Netherlands. Two years ago 69% tolerated the LGTBQ+ community. Now only 43% The parents of this group are the generation that grew up with Madonna. They should know better. In the USA TRADWifes are the latest trend. TRAD stands for Traditional. Young women who called themself influencers are willing to live their lives like women in the 1950s. Cooking and cleaning for the husband. That’s their job, the husband supports the family.
Mary: It’s a very frightening time and I hope young people understand that the freedoms that were won for them in social battles in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s are not permanent, that in fact they’re at risk. I think this new intolerance is part of the general fear people have when looking at the future, which can be so grim because of climate change, AI, political extremism fuelled by social media, war. In times of massive change, people retreat to safety zones. I think that’s where the TRAD movement comes from, though God help them. Those girls don’t have a clue about the freedoms they’re relinquishing, though the men who are controlling the messaging certainly do. As for the lack of LGBTQ+ tolerance, I really don’t understand it. Again, I suppose it’s fear of the unknown or the other, and misinformation spread through social media, but it doesn’t make a bit of sense to me. We must be ready to fight to protect our rights! Freedom isn’t passive, it requires action.
Dave: Do you think the role models from these days are playing a part in it? They seem to prefer playing it safe, rather than taking risks.
Mary: Yes, I think the general messaging is very safe, as you say, but safe for whom? That’s the question we need to ask. Who is benefiting from this new social conservatism?
It’s the people who want to retain their power, the people who have dominated the planet for the past 2,000 years: White men (my apologies to those among you who aren’t part of the reactionary revolution!) We need to ask questions about so-called role models, and not just take what they say at face value. We need to ask: What are they saying? Why are they saying it? Who is writing their material? Who is paying their bills? Who gains from what they are saying? That’s why Madonna is so great. Even if you don’t agree with her message, you know exactly who’s speaking – she is. She has never been afraid of being political. She has never chosen the safe path, quite the contrary. One of the things that surprised me most in her story was just how many chances she took. Even when she was penniless, she abandoned easy paths if taking them meant not being true to herself. That sounds hokey, but it’s true.
Dave: Videoclips used to be the ultimate way to reach young adults. Nowadays the videos are more explicit than ever. Madonna has several videos that were banned from MTV or could be played only after midnight. In which way did she pave the way for the artists that came after her?
Mary: Madonna pushed every envelop, especially in video. But when you think about her chronologically, it was easy to do because video was an absolutely new art form in the early 80s. Madonna could take it and make it her own, which she did. There were many, many videos that weren’t at all racy, but when she felt like it, or when she thought the material demanded it, she made statements that were shocking for their time. In retrospect they were ridiculously mild compared to what’s out there today! It’s hilarious to watch “Justify My Love,” for example, and realize that that was banned. It’s as racy as a perfume ad! But because Madonna was such a huge celebrity and because she did it herself, she put herself in a so-called compromising position, it was incredibly controversial. (Also, I suppose, the non-hetero aspects of it were controversial but those were so fleeting they really didn’t register.) I think rather than opening the door for explicit videos – remember, MTV was dripping in sex long before Madonna — I think she made video into a serious art form. Sure, they could be sexy, but they could also make political statements (“Like a Prayer”), be fun (“Human Nature”), and unforgettable (“Bad Girl,” “Hung Up,” “God Control”).
Dave: What’s your favorite Madonna era?
Mary: As I said in an earlier answer, I love bits of all her eras. There are so many highlights. I love her pre-fame years in New York, working with Steve Bray. I love her early Hollywood period with Sean Penn, making Like a Virgin and True Blue. I love the 1989-1994 period – from Like A Prayer, through Blond Ambition, “Vogue,” Erotica, Sex, and Bedtime Stories. I love her American Life period, and Confessions. I even love MDNA, Rebel Heart and I really love Madame X. I think it would be easier for me to say what interests me less: Ray of Light and Hard Candy are my least favorites. I know it’s heretical not to like Ray of Light, and I do like it. It’s just that it speaks to me much less than her other work. I love R&B and dance music, and I find that ROL is a little too purely electronic for me. Hard Candy could have been great, but I think her producing team was a disaster. I do love her personal life during that period, though. I cheer when she emerges from the depths of her marriage to Guy Ritchie.
Dave: What would you love to see Madonna do next?
Mary: I’m really anxious to see what she does with her biopic. At this point they are so repetitive – struggle, fame, crisis, redemption (except for poor Amy Winehouse). But I know that Madonna will come up with a new way of telling her life story. I’m also anxious to see what parts of her life she focuses on.
Dave: What was the biggest surprise you learned from Madonna, after finishing your book?
Mary: I think the biggest surprise for me – or the least expected aspect of her life – was her courage. I really didn’t know, when I began, just how courageous she was. I can’t imagine the kind of strength it took to arrive in New York alone and force oneself not just onto a very closed scene but to the very top of it. I can’t imagine the strength it took to arrive in Hollywood where pop entertainers like Madonna were so disrespected and within a very few years become one of the film industry’s biggest stars. And I can’t imagine how she lived her life faced with a hurricane of criticism about absolutely everything she did. I’ve written about a lot of historical figures, people who changed the world, and I can tell you she is the most courageous of any I have written about.
Dave: She’s still fighting ageism, and for what she believes in. She doesn’t stop dressing sexy and pose provocatively in photoshoots. Do you think we need that in our lives, or does she need to make space for the new generation? Can you describe the importance of Madonna these days?
Mary: I think she needs to do what she needs to do, regardless of us. That’s what she’s always done. Rarely has it seemed appropriate at the time, but in retrospect, we can look at her life and say she opened doors and bust through smoky windows so that we could all be a bit freer. If she wants to strip down and share her body on Instagram, let her. It’s her life. As for the new generation, there’s plenty of room for them. I think they and we benefit from Madonna still being out there doing her thing. Think about the Celebration tour again. Just imagine how much inspiration that was for younger artists, and the possibilities they now see for their own work. Also, when we talk about a shift toward conservatism, Madonna will never make that journey. We need her to be out there showing us that gender isn’t a cage we’re born confined to, it represents our wings! We need her to show younger women that you can be powerful and feminine and a mother and an artist – that you can have it all if you dare!
Madonna: A Rebel Life is available to order through:
Thank you all for your questions and your kind words about Madonna: A Rebel Life. If there are
any interesting developments, I’ll let you know through MadonnaUnderground.
My best to you all,
Mary
